Education leaders agree: High school students need better counseling

Dan Mitchell has worked as a college advisor serving two small high schools in rural northern Michigan for just over a year, but that’s long enough for him to have learned how important his job is.

“We see a lot of students who are completely lost,” Mitchell said. “They don’t know what they don’t know.”

Mitchell was one of a host of speakers at The Center for Michigan’s career navigation summit in Livonia Monday who displayed various levels of frustration and different solutions, but who agreed on one basic point: Michigan high school students need better college and career guidance.

More than 125 community and education leaders, policymakers and parents gathered at Schoolcraft College to discuss how to improve the state’s college and career navigation system.

REGISTER for the “Challenges to Upward Mobility” conference Oct. 20 in Grand Rapids

Monday’s event was the first of three conferences this fall building on The Center for Michigan’s community engagement project this year, “Getting to Work,” in which the Center collected and analyzed public sentiment across the state on issues important to Michigan residents: college and career guidance, college affordability, and career advancement (The Center for Michigan is the parent organization of Bridge Magazine).

In “Getting to Work,” which captured the views of more than 5,000 Michigan residents, a strong majority of residents rated college and career guidance that students receive in Michigan high schools as “lousy” or “terrible” and would like to see dedicated college and career advisors in every high school.

REGISTER for the “College Value/Affordability” conference Nov. 2 in Lansing

That’s not a surprise, considering that Michigan ranks among the bottom five states in the nation in the ratio of students to counselors, with roughly 700 students for every counselor overall and more than 500 students per counselor in the state’s high schools.

“Our school counselors are overwhelmed,” Lisa Baragar Katz, executive director of the Workforce Intelligence Network for Southeast Michigan, told the gathering.

Counselors in most high schools don’t have the time to offer anything beyond cursory college and career guidance, and most do not have the training to do it, anyway. In Michigan, college and career guidance training is not required for high school counselors.

Things aren’t much better in Ohio or Indiana. “If I had closed my eyes and listened to what was being said here, I would have thought you were talking about Ohio,” said Carolyn George, director of Career Connections for the Ohio Department of Education.

Matt Fleck helped conduct a review of school counseling services in Indiana for the Indiana Chamber of Commerce in 2014, and the problems that report highlighted were identical to the concerns highlighted in a similar report 20 years earlier.

Jim Danielski, director of Career Planning Specialists in Plymouth, brought a tape recorder to the conference and played a radio ad from 20 years ago that complained about the same issues discussed Monday. “It’s not a new problem,” Danielski said.

While the issue isn’t new, there is momentum to address it. Gov. Rick Snyder has made career navigation a priority for his administration because of its potential impact on the economy.

Michigan is below the national average in the percent of adults holding college degrees. Efforts to get more high school graduates onto college campuses are hobbled by the lack of high-quality college and career navigation in high schools. Speakers Monday offered numerous recommendations to address the issue.

Patrick O’Connor, associate dean of counseling at Cranbrook Schools, is pushing a requirement that high school counselors be required by the state to receive training in college and career navigation.

House Bill 4552 would do just that – requiring 25 hours of professional development in college prep and selection, and 25 hours in career counseling. The bill is awaiting a hearing in the House committee on workforce and talent development.

Rep. Amanda Price, R-Holland, chair of the House Education Committee, said Monday she would support the bill. Rep. Adam Zemke, D-Ann Arbor, said the bill hasn’t received much attention yet because legislators are focused for the moment on two large education bills this fall ‒ one addressing the standards by which K-12 teachers should be evaluated and another dealing with third-grade literacy requirements.

Brandy Johnson, executive director of Michigan College Access Network, http://www.micollegeaccess.org/ described two programs that are operated or partially funded by her organization that place new college graduates in low-income high schools for two-year stints, to help students apply to college and fill out financial aid forms.

This year, the programs have placed 83 advisors in 100 high schools. “We’re excited about some of the successes we are seeing,” Johnson said.

She said she’d like to see MCAN’s college advising programs eventually expand to about 350 Michigan high schools.

Helping students figure out what they want, and how to get it, is a big part of the battle, said Rachel Osmer, a college advisor at Ypsilanti High School. “I probably have 10 percent of my students come in and say, ‘I know where I want to go and here are my scores.’” But, she said, the “other 90 percent have no idea.”

Karen McPhee, senior education advisor to the governor and former superintendent of Ottawa Area Intermediate School District, cautioned against believing there was one magic bullet that will solve the problem.

“We need to make sure we don’t try to solve a complex problem with simple solutions,” McPhee said. “We have a tendency in education to swing the pendulum all the way to one side and when it doesn’t work, we swing it all the way to the other side.”

While admitting counselors are overworked, “I don’t think career counseling can be put just in the hands of counselors any more than the man in the moon,” McPhee said. “You need a systemic policy that involves everyone” in improving college and career counseling, not just high school counselors.

That everyone includes parents.

“Parent involvement would help a lot,” said Mitchell, the college advisor from northern Michigan. “That’s one of the biggest challenges we have.”

Increasing the number of school counselors “is awesome, but it doesn’t solve the whole problem,” said Jay Miller, legislative chair of the Michigan School Counselor Association. “We need to get into the classroom and (emphasize) education development plans. I see that as a huge way to make progress here.”

Education development plans, in which students are supposed to develop career goals, are required already, but in many schools, they are not emphasized by teachers, counselors or students, said Workforce Intelligence Network’s Katz.

The Center for Michigan is holding two more summits in the next month: Challenges to Upward Mobility, 8:45 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Tuesday, Oct. 20 at Eberhard Center in Grand Rapids, and College Value and Affordability, 8:30 a.m. to 2 p.m. Monday, Nov. 2, at the Radisson Hotel in downtown Lansing. To register for either of those public events, visit The Center for Michigan website.

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Comments

Fed Up No $$
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 10:12am
Are we surprised? With less and less money to educate children services are cut. We have 2 councilors and 1400+ students. No librarian. Public schools are the best value for the dollar. Yet the dollars are diluted to give it to colleges and universities and to start a cheaper school system called charter schools. Then we expect miracles. Our legislators have designed a system perfectly to get the results we have.
george
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 10:29am
I am a retired educator with 34 years of teaching under my belt. Invariably, the high school counselors that I worked with had too many tasks to perform in getting students on track to learn and graduate. But as a vo-tech educator, the larger problem for students was that counselors were academics, rather than people familiar with vocations. So they related well with college bound high seniors but less-well with vo-tech oriented students. Therefore, their advice was often misguided. And, of course, there is little money available for more, better trained, counselors. More hand-wringing in Lansing, but few answers,
Ned S. Curtis
Tue, 10/13/2015 - 4:22pm
I, too, am a retired educator. In my estimation the need for more & better (differently) trained counsellors in our public high schools surfaced in 1985, at the latest. It is a need for all schools...college-oriented student bodies and career-oriented student bodies.
R.L.
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 11:02am
George you are right on. My experience of 35 years in high school work was the same. Further education and training is needed, but not necessarily 4 year degrees. R.L.
R.L.
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 12:25pm
State put your money where your mouth is. Engler's Proposal A was to bring equity in funding to education. Starting a teacher at 30 to 32,000 a year is a joke. I know they only work 185 days a year, but whose choice is that. 30 plus 5 year olds in a classroom, 4, 5, 6, 7 ,hundred kids to a counselor. Just what do you expect? Start more charter schools for profit and more schools on line, that will really solve our problems. Oh yes throw in a few more graduation requirements, but not CTE or Vocational education. Yada Yada Yada . R.L.
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 12:59pm
At this conference / summit, I heard the ration was closer to 500 kids per career counselor.
Melissa Hogan
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 3:45pm
I believe K-12 ratio is over 650:1. 9-12 is 452:1. But I sometimes get those backwards !
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 12:52pm
I was at this conference and got frustrated with the politicians' answers. The experts on the topics were in the audience, not on the stage. I wrote some suggestions down for the Bridge organizers and asked them to have cards available from the audience to write down questions for the panel to answer. Hopefully they will have this for the next conference. I also asked that the moderators keep involved in the discussion so that the responses from the panel (especially the politicians) relate to and answer the questions asked. It was frustrating to listen to some of the responses that were just political yakety-yak. Argh!
John Bebow - Pr...
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 1:10pm
Your points are well taken, Ms. Crossey. It's always a challenge in conferences to provide enough time for question and answer periods. We thought there was healthy exchange between presenters and audience participants yesterday. But there was room for more - and we wish there would have been time for more. Our team talked through this issue this morning. If you, or any other audience members, have unanswered questions please feel free to email both the questions and which panelist you sought to ask to info@thecenterformichigan.net. We will seek answers for you in follow up. And we're working to expand audience participation at the next two summits on October 20 and November 2. Thanks very much for the feedback.
walt
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 1:50pm
20 years there was a pilot program in the MI DOEd for middle school students to develop early awareness of postsecondary opportunities. It was designed to introduce information about those opportunities through the daily lesson plan-- e.g., in math class a unit on basic computations used in figuring cost of attendance; in social studies discussions on the various roles of institution types. The MI DOE person leading the program tended to disregard the bureaucratic track which caused the funding folks to cut him adrift. During the brief attempt, MS teachers recruited for the program took to it with gusto, coming up with substantive, creative plans. Also, FOMOCO Engineering at the time showed high interest. I think there would be continuing interest today that could be linked to foundation grants to support development of curricula, materials, software, and stipends for teacher training. Perhaps a college of education could coordinate. There were federal funds in the 90's for early awareness programs . . . no idea what the situation is now. Chance for our senators to get innovative??
Jim Hendricks
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 2:46pm
This is an extremely important issue and kudos tor Bridge for putting this on our radar. I don't think we need more certification or class preparation for counselors - what I believe we do need are nimble people who can construct "experience" activities that expose students to the immense range of jobs and careers that exist in the economy. I think most of us who have been around awhile constantly come across jobs they never knew existed, and which might have attracted them early in their careers had they known they were even there. Once a student can see something he likes, there will be a real incentive to work toward that goal. Recognizing that to even approach this, some adjustment in the average school week might be required for the large number of field trips or presentations that would be required, the return could be immense.
Duane
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 3:31pm
I notice no one is asking what are the root causes for this lack of understaniding by the students. What do we expect the counselors to help the students do and why? No one seems to wonder about how kids learn, one way is by seeing and hearing others talk about things the students have no exposure to. Who do the students have contact with, teachers, writers [see the end results of their work not what it takes to deliver it], their family, and maybe coaches. With that limited contact what do you expect them to feel are the degree careers they see available? Where do the overwhelming number of counselors come from? How many have working expirience outside the academic community? We hear all this wringing of hands over money, counselors over load, politics, but we hear nobody talking about the specific results the counseling system is to deliver. I think the counselors are working hard and delivering [for without graduation the career efforts are extremely limited]. How can we expect anything if we don't even define what the results need to be? How would you stay a sports team is successful if there were no score keeping? We need to be asking questions and listening. As a test, we hear a lot about STEM, its related training and caeers, but how many of us have been trained and have jobs in the science, technology, engineering, mathematics? How many have worked with people in those fields? How many teachers and counselors have met with and discussed what that work involves? If we don't have that level of understanding how can we expect the students to aspire to those roles? It seems too many people are so invested in the status quo that they can't see things have to change not simply spend a little more, add a bit of training, add a few people, add a special administrative structure. That change has to start with deciding on what the results are we expect. Then we can ask why aren't we delivering those results. What results do people want for the students?
Christina
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 5:03pm
I was also at this conference. I feel as a former high school counselor, school counselors could become defensive with the statement "a majority rated their college and career guidance "terrible" or "lousy". They may feel attacked and that College Advisors could threaten their position. School counselors are one piece to the solution. Not understanding the role of a school counselor creates misconceptions that deter from their true position. By having a data driven, comprehensive school counseling program a school counselor can perform his/her role. I believe that a collaboration between school counselors, administration, teachers, parents, community, and students could create a school-wide program from K to 12. A school-wide program that could be used as an example is the Leader in Me program based on Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. Novi is successfully implementing this program. Designing a career and college school-wide program could be modeled similar to this program. I think a creative solution can come from these conferences. I really loved when our closing speaker thanked her parents for dragging her to college campuses on their family vacations! Wonderful! One more piece to the solution.
Jim
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 6:31pm
Bring back the home room period. The teacher "advocate" become the child's educational advisor, attendance monitor, course and career advisor.
R.L.
Tue, 10/06/2015 - 8:12pm
Most counselors are first and foremost Guidance people,,schedulers ,and whatever else is assigned. They are often so far removed from the real world that exists and is going to be faced by the graduates. Cooperative Educ. mentoring,job shadowing, exposes teachers,counselors and others to what they will be facing when they leave high school. Little testing is offered that helps identify aptitudes and interests while still in school, and then meaningful interpretation of these tests. We have a lot of work ahead of us. R.L.
Wed, 10/07/2015 - 10:42am
Here we go again--blaming school counselors. Yes, we want to see our students' aspirations raised. Yes, we want them to pursue a path to solid careers, benefiting both our young citizens and our state's economy. But this is a FAR more complex issue than improving school counseling. It's about genuine occupational opportunities here in Michigan, about the fallacious "college for all" push, and about what we expect from public education. And--it's about the rapacious college loan industry. What good does it do a student to go to a "better" four-year university, if they can't pay their loans unless they take their talent and education out of state? And please--let's not lay all these interlocked crises at the feet of school counselors, OK? School counselors, whether they're responsible for 400 or 700 students, often serve as testing coordinators and master schedulers, as well as advisors for teens with huge personal problems that impact their academic achievement. That's pretty much three full-time jobs, right there, given the current, bare-bones funding for public education and legislation that bases everything from teacher evaluation to keeping the doors open on test-generated data. Targeting school counselors and their lack of current information on hundreds of post-secondary options as responsible for keeping kids out of college is foolish. As for second-party recruiters (let's not call them counselors) who come into schools to get more students into the "right" colleges-- we will not be able to honestly evaluate their impact for a decade, until we see who has finished a four-year degree, what their job prospects are and where, and whether investing in a university education has made them happier and more prosperous. You owe school counselors an apology.
didIsaythat
Wed, 10/07/2015 - 11:05am
I suspect the blame game over counselors is a two way street. If a student is getting no guidance from home on a college career what can you realistically expect a counselor to do if the student has no idea what they want to do with their life? A cursory interview at first but what kind of resources can they give an individual student if they have to deal with 100s of them over the course of a year?. There is only so much hand holding they can do and they the student has to take the initiative themselves as well.
Anna
Wed, 10/07/2015 - 12:38pm
I was also at the summit Monday, but as an "outsider" relative to most attendees and almost all of the panelists/ presenters. I'm an engineering manager, a parent, and a part-time educational activist. On that last score, I try to champion policies, procedures, and techniques that will adapt school systems to students' needs, rather than force-fit students into schools or programs. Everyone who spoke seemed to assume that with enough appropriately trained school counselors, college advisors, or both, that 90-95% of high school graduates would be guided to enroll in post-secondary education or training that fit their abilities and aspirations almost immediately after graduation. Sorry, but I'm not convinced. I'm especially not convinced that students (and their parents) who have ignored the question of "What do you want to do for a living?" until the junior or even senior year in high school are going to guess right the first time. Maybe not even the third. Some kids lack either maturity or decisiveness, even with every advantage of family support and exposure to a wide variety of possible careers. Some students are intellectually disabled, and will need supported or carefully structured work environments. Furthermore, encouraging students to enroll in educational programs or institutions for which they are poorly prepared or not motivated means they may have to bear the expense of remedial (non-credit) courses, flunk or drop out in much higher numbers, and then have to deal with both the stigma of failure and (usually) student loan debt that is far more burdensome than it would have been if the student had earned a credential by completing the program. On the other hand, minority, rural, and low-income students often enroll in local institutions rather than the highest-level school they're qualified for. This shortchanges booth the student and society, since economic and social support for minority and low-income students tends to be higher at the higher-level schools where admission standards are race- and need-blind but coaching in navigating college life is widely available. Not to mention the graduation and subsequent career achievement levels are much higher. Even after acknowledging that most school systems treat students' mandatory Education Development Plan as a recurring joke, no one suggested either fixing what's broken or replacing the EDP with something that actually works for most students. Or even something that works better for more students. The EDP can and should be a way to document 5 or 6 years of exploration of aptitudes, interests, and the implications of middle school and high school course selection, college admission prerequisites and pay rates in different fields and regions to guide student and family decisions about possible post-secondary education and careers. If the EDP is redesigned around a database, this would allow counselors to identify students with similar interests and abilities, then share information, suggestions and deadline reminders with them as a group, rather than individually. That leverages counselor (or college advisor) time significantly, freeing them to cover the social-emotional parts of their jobs which is more appropriately performed one-on-one.
Duane
Wed, 10/07/2015 - 8:42pm
Anna, Did anyone at the conference suggested using trained 'volunteers' in the role of post high school coaching? Did anyone feel that former or even active certified and expereinced 'journeyman' or degreed and practicing engineers or other similarly professionally experienced people should be recruited to be part of full time career 'coaches'? It would seem to me that it would be easier and more effective to take knowledgeable working professionals into high school career 'coaches' with special training then it would be to take academics and teach them to be workplace career 'experts'. Who better then an a degreed engineer to coach students on what it take to earn an Engineering BS and what can be done with such a degree, or have a certified welder coach a student what it takes to become ceritified and what that work is like? Was there much time and effort placed on audience ideas for addressing the issue of career navigation?
Anna
Thu, 10/08/2015 - 10:49am
Hi Duane, No, there was no suggestion for training actual volunteers with career experience, but the Americorps program that trains and deploys "Near-Peer" College Advisors from among recent college grads was widely discussed. Americorps is a "civic engagement" NGO that pays a modest stipend and provides benefits, including job/career training to the people who sign up. An older term for a related program is VISTA (Volunteers in Service to America) but that program also pays modest stipends / supports living expenses, and so isn't quite what I believe you meant. Unfortunately, the College Advisor program draws almost exclusively from BA graduates in fields like sociology, psychology, education and counseling. Almost all BS new graduates have significantly better job opportunities, so this program apparently hasn't tried to recruit them. The recent college graduates are good at building rapport with high school students because of being only a few years older, and can relate their recent experiences with college admissions, student aid (FASFA!), life on campus, and curriculum planning / course selection. It's certainly a worthwhile program as far as getting students into a college if they're academically qualified. What College Advisors and High School Counselors can't do is provide insight into what a wide variety of workplaces or career paths are like, because most of them have only ever worked professionally in the K-12 school system. Any guidance they can give is based on aptitude testing of the students and statistical correlations between aptitudes and job classifications. Based on my experiences, I agree that an experienced professional in almost any field can, with very minimal training, be a great career guidance "coach" for middle and high school students about their own and related fields. I personally do a fair number of Career Day and National Engineers Week outreach activities with schools where I know either staff or students. Probably retired or partially-disabled workers from many types of STEM or administrative jobs could go through College Advisor type training to get up to speed with the latest hoops students have to jump through to qualify for training in their choice of careers and then get into colleges, universities, trade schools, and even the military. They could then serve in schools as a process coach and mentor to students pursuing a career in the field where they have experience. Making people with experience and the ability to recommend students to their alma mater or their previous employer available to mentor rural and high-poverty schools might close some of the gap in the number of those students who succeed at post-secondary education and find satisfying, lucrative careers. There wasn't any request for ideas from the audience at the summit, or at the Community Conversation session I attended on this overall Getting To Work study. That's apparently one function for the comments on Bridge's web site.
Duane
Thu, 10/08/2015 - 8:59pm
Anna, I have worked with AmeriCorp people and as committed as I have found them they are in the program as much for their education as for helping others. I think the experienced non-academic can bring a significantly different prespective, beyond what the trained counselors do. I suspect there are many that would do it as volunteers. That last [volunteers] maybe the biggest stumbling block. What has been surprsing to me is how little interest the academic 'experts have in drawing on the local non-academics professionals as a resource. If it is other then a parent, at least in my community, there is no effort to recruit such professionals. It is too bad that there isn't an opportunity to explore new ideas and see how they could be made applicable. I am one of those who believes the majority of high school graduates could succeed in the STEM type careers, and in the certified skilled trades (which are also STEM careers). I am saddened by your experience with the Community Conversations not trying to draw ideas from the participants, the online survey had no place to offer ideas. The Center for Michigan has created such a great opportunity to engage people, to include them in the process, to draw them into developing innovative ideas/approaches to persistent problems, and to recruit them to be part of change. There is so much unrealized potential, much like our K-12 system. Your opportunities with the Career Day and National Engineers Week sounds great, I have not heard of the in my community. We moved here after the our daughters had established their careers.
Marie
Wed, 10/28/2015 - 6:10pm
Your idea that all college advisors are BA graduates is actually quite incorrect. Many of the current advisors on the U of M and MSU corps have BS degrees. They range from brain, cognitive, neuron sciences to biology to plastic manufacturing degrees. Many of the advisors have experience in fields outside of education, and this is their chance to give back. I personally know this, and I know that many of them are passionate about helping their communities. College advisors and counselors have to work together to help kids. Ideally starting them on a career/college path in middle school. But it is unfair to say that college advisors are limited in their scope. They have a plethora of knowledge behind them and can give great advice.
Michele Strasz
Thu, 10/08/2015 - 9:48am
Each stakeholder in this system has a role and responsibility to play. Parents must support their children and ask for guidance when they don't have the information or experience. Students must be empowered to be engaged and given the tools to map out their options. Teachers must be supported and allowed to teach high standards without fear of being "evaluated" out of a job. There needs to be more counselors and more training for them to meet the complex needs of students in the ever-changing global society. Administrators and local school board members must look at the data AND to listen to their teams and communities to prioritize funding that will address the needs of students. Citizens need to be engaged, involved, vote, and support tax investments in the development, support, and education of our future taxpayers, employees, parents, and voters. Policymakers must also look at the data AND listen to their constituents (all of the above) to make investments in systemic change not one shot solutions.
Duane
Thu, 10/08/2015 - 9:13pm
Michele, You may say "Citizens need to be engaged, involved, vote, and support tax investments in the development, support,..." All of my experiences and much of our daughters (as parents) with public schools (except for a charter school) has been discouraging the involvment of parents and total exclusion of non-parents in the community. As best I can tell they only want our money, and students [as a means to the State money].
R.L.
Thu, 10/29/2015 - 1:34pm
#0 plus years ago I instituted a three week non paid work experience or shadow if you will. They took three weeks three hours a day to be on site at an employer and see first hand what is done there ,the education required etc. To this day I have student that are still on those jobs at that employer. Beef up Co-op programs and get back CTE Vocational classes. R.L.
Ann
Sat, 04/02/2016 - 7:43pm
The idea that anyone, regardless of training or life experience, can be an expert on EVERY socio-emotional need, EVERY career field, EVERY school or program and what they have to offer, EVERY financial aid need, etc - it is beyond ridiculous. It is an unfortunate reality in many districts that counselors are expected to run all AP exams, all standardized testing, much of scheduling, all EDP work, as well as the above. We do an inordinate amount of clerical and administrative work. They are all overworked as well! And we must individually coordinate and manage all 504 plans for students on our caseloads. Put those together, and try to do it well for about 500 kids in 185 school days, and you have a recipe for burnout and dissatisfaction of all parties involved. Add to that the fact no one is addressing - teachers at the high school level are required to deliver so much content, that every single disruption to their class time is painful. That may not sound like a counseling issue to you, but when do you imagine counselors are to meet with students to deliver all of these initiatives? Until we can somehow devise a system that includes more partners, so each can have a specialty, and includes BUILT IN time for these things to happen, counselors will continue to valiantly attempt to scale the wall... but probably without much improvement.
ScottSheft
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