Michigan passes 200,000 COVID cases. What we’ve learned, and haven’t.

A continued surge in COVID cases is wearing down medical and public health staff. (Shutterstock)

It took six months for COVID-19 to reach 100,000 cases in Michigan.  

It’s taken just 70 days for those numbers to double. On Friday, Michigan stood at 200,569 cases, according to new state data.

 

At the current pace, the state will pass 300,000 cases in less than a month as Michigan returns to long lines for tests, worries about hospital capacity and difficult days ahead for thousands of sick people.

And doctors and health officials worry that eight months of numbers and charts and maps have turned even the most sobering data into a kind of white noise — with too many residents not following basic advice.

“I wish I had a great idea of something new that we could try or something that would allow people to embrace and coalesce around,” said Nick Derusha, president of the Michigan Association of Local Public Health. 

“I think the fact is that the things we need to do to beat the virus are pretty simple, and I think we know them.”

 

It’s important to focus on what’s happening now instead of cumulative totals, said Linda Vail, health officer in Ingham County, where numbers spiked during the summer after an outbreak at an East Lansing bar and then again in September when off-campus Michigan State University students returned for fall classes. 

Even so, then, she noted, the numbers are sobering.

  • On Thursday, the state added another 5,710 cases, a third more than the previous record, 4,101, from the day before.
  • On Friday, 145 more people were hospitalized with confirmed or suspected cases of COVID, raising the total currently hospitalized uacross the state to  2,425, the highest level since late April — and 1,200 more than just two weeks ago.
  • Also Friday, the state reported 43 deaths, raising the pandemic total past 7,500. It was the highest one-day death toll since late May.

Vail and other health officials and doctors who spoke to Bridge repeated what they’ve been saying for months: Wear a mask. Wash hands. Social distance. Avoid gatherings. Stay home when sick.

While the virus has mutated as viruses do, it has not done so in a way that makes it more virulent, said Emily Toth Martin, an associate professor of epidemiology and co-director of the Michigan Influenza Center at the University of Michigan School of Public Health.

 

Contact tracing confirms that the most “explosive” outbreaks are in large gatherings and places where masks aren’t used, she said.

“The more easy solutions seem to be working,” she said.

Recent “superspreader” events — Halloween bashes, political rallies and college football parties — now may be adding further fuel to the spread, she and others told Bridge Michigan.

“That’s undoubtedly going to drive up transmission over the next couple of weeks,”  said Dr. Nick Gilpin, medical director of infection prevention and epidemiology at Beaumont Health.

Data and doubt

But eight months has made this clear: Simple safety recommendations have proven anything but.

While Derusha and other health officials plead with a weary public to stay the course, others see the messaging as attacks on personal freedoms, overreach by government, and wrecking the economy.  The data have deepened divides.

Just this week, Democrat Gov. Gretchen Whitmer asked the Republican-led legislature to mandate masks as a way to boost compliance with public health orders. But incoming House Speaker Jason Wentworth, R-Clare, dismissed the plea as a “press stunt.”

 

Before (and after) he was sickened with COVID last month, President Trump frequently appeared without a mask and dismissed Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and other health experts as “idiots.”

After years of experience in contact tracing, disease control and prevention and pandemic planning, public health officials were caught off-guard by the political pushback, said MALPH’s Derusha.

It’s “disheartening,” he said, noting that some staffers have worked nearly seven days a week since March, only to have the public insult them.

“We definitely understand that folks are tired of the virus. They're fatigued with the measures that need to be in place and the things we need to do. We sympathize. We're tired as well,” he said.

Nursing homes remain hotspots

The state’s recent data also show that nursing homes continue to be weak links in the defense, despite protocols that have forced regular testing of staff and shut down nearly all indoor visitation for eight months.

Last week, 55 of 96 deaths were in nursing homes and other long-term care facilities. 

In Grand Rapids, Michelle Thompson has spent a better part of 2020 trying to see her 87-year-old mother at her nursing home. She was able to score a single outdoor visit in October — the last one that wasn’t bisected by a window or a Skype screen.

On Monday came the news she had dreaded: Norma Thompson was taken to the hospital after testing positive for COVID.

In September, Norma Thompson was all smiles on Skype after the nursing home resident finally was able to get her hair done. The pandemic has cancelled nearly all in-person visitation and, for some, even haircuts. On Monday, Thompson, 87, was diagnosed with COVID, her daughter, Michelle Thompson, said. (Courtesy photo)

By Friday, as her mother’s oxygen levels continued to drop, Michelle Thompson, a former customer service representative at an insurance company, struggled to keep her voice even.

She is furious at the virus. Furious at her helplessness. Furious at anyone who denies COVID or has given up the fight against it.

“Some people — you could take them to my Mom’s bedside right now, and they wouldn’t give a shit,” Thompson told Bridge.

She apologized for the language. But the whole year has ground away at her patience. The worry — bad enough before Monday — has overwhelmed her.

“She was a vibrant 87-year-old who a week ago was laughing and joking and smiling,” she said of her mother.

Burnout

Emily Toth Martin, who studies the coronavirus at the University of Michigan School of Public Health, said the virus has not mutated in ways to make it more virulent. It's still small things — masking and social distancing — that remain the best defense. (Bridge photo by Robin Erb)

On the positive side, hospitals across Michigan are better positioned with personal protective equipment than they were in March and April.

There's still no vaccine or sure-fire treatment, but doctors today are able to recognize COVID’s many symptoms faster and test supplies are more readily available. Treatment options are growing, too.

But Dr. Gary Roth, chief medical officer of the Michigan Health & Hospital Association, and others worry about something else: Staff burnout.

Especially in southeast Michigan, medical staff and their support had been at bedsides when hospitals were overwhelmed last spring and patients died without loved ones at their sides. Staff were suited in hot, uncomfortable PPE — equipment that rubbed skin raw. They worried about their own health and their loved ones when they returned homes.

“Many of them had just barely begun to recover from the effects of the stresses of COVID-19 early on,” Roth said. 

That’s when a second wave hit Michigan. 

It’s no longer “in the rearview mirror,” he said. “They're seeing it in front.”

Facts matter. Trust matters. Journalism matters.

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Comments

Come on, Man!
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 5:24am

So we did turn the corner, in the wrong direction. Trump doesn't care, but we do. Time to take the plague and our economy seriously.

agdufey_108339
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 7:53pm

Sad but true. Now the moment of truth: will B-H manage to stop irresponsible behavior and get everybody to wear masks? I have my doubts. "Responsible leadership" in Europe does not manage either.....

Jerry B
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 3:10am

Sadly the world looks to the USA for LEADERSHIP. Cases started rising there when they saw trump rallies and thought the virus must not be so bad.

End gerrymandering
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 3:43am

GOP legislature is useless waste of our tax dollars.--

Whitmer asked the Legislature last week to codify into law a statewide mask requirement, saying it would be “helpful to our health, our safety and our economy.” Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, has said he would oppose such legislation.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/11/10/whitmer...

Jake
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 8:00am

What have we learned? That the Governors dictates aren't working,

We also learned that Michiganders see through the lies. Halloween parties and political (as in Republican) rallies are "super spreader" events, but mass gatherings of rioting in the streets, oops, protesting, aren't.

We learned that covid can attack while standing outside a restaurant by myself and I MUST wear a mask, but I'm safe from it inside the building (and no need of a mask)

We learned that deaths due to covid matter, but deaths due to domestic violence increase from the lockdowns don't matter so much. That deaths due to the car pandemic don't matter either.

Eddie
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 6:51pm

MOST Michiganders saw thru the lies and chose Biden to lead us out of this nightmare. Our
Cases have more than doubled after Governor's Covid safety measures were overturned by the GOP stacked Supereamer court. That's what we learned. What we learned is that there still exists a minority of people who think Covid is a "publicity stunt". All of them are GOPers and some even hold office. They should be removed from office. What "we" learned is that the majority of educated voters KNOW this pandemic is deadly, it is real, and without efforts to stop it, our economy will continue to tank and people will die.

Free Whitmer!
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 3:15am

COVID-19 will be Lee Chatfield's Flint crisis, a legacy of death and destruction Snyder can't shake. Chatfield challenged the authority of the governor's emergency powers and offered no solutions. He succeeded only because of the GOP packed Michigan Supreme Court. So dear children of Chatfield, this is your daddy's legacy, one of massive COVID-19 deaths. He has no shame. He showed no leadership in office.

duane
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 8:47am

There three factors that have influenced my frustration with the current state of Covid 19 actions in Michigan, how the politicians and the media have politicalized the Covid virus, how the medical professionals have made their professional pronouncement and how they have been inconsistent, and how the public and it collective wisdom has be ignored it, even distained by those in Lansing and in our medical centers of knowledge and research and by the media.
Simply put, there is no consistent approach, there is no inclusion of those who have to do the everyday activities of their lives, there seems to be no growing understanding of what, why, how, where, of the virus, there seems to be no discipline in the professions, the medical, the media, and the politicians.
If we [the uninformed residents of Michigan] can learn what we need to do [not how we have to do it], we are creative, we are adaptable, and we know how to when it works, then we can we can apply our collective thinking/doing develop effective practices. Tell us how we get the virus [is it absorbed through the skin, is it inhaled, does it enter our bodies through the eyes, ears, and other body openings, and we will look for the most effective ways to prevent such contact. If it is breath then don’t tell me a face shield, a scarf, a tee shirt, a fiber mask are all equivalent protections. Is it in our homes, why or why not, how can we control it in the one place we can control? What is magical about 6 feet, or is that simply the Governor’s arbitrary choice? The list of questions is long, but why don’t hear even these questions, then see/hear the answers?
How can it be that we have had millions of people doing what the politicians, the media, and the medical professionals have been telling us, and all we hear is that the virus is setting new records of cases and deaths? Maybe it is time to tell the public what is known have them use their collective wisdom to solve the protection problems? They are the ones that are going to have to do it effectively every minute of every day, and do.

Arjay
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 12:21pm

You can play defense all you want, but at some point, to defeat the virus, you will need therapeutics and vaccines. President Trump's warp speed plan to get government out of the way and let the scientists and doctors and lab technicians in the drug companies develop new drugs and vaccines, and test them as fast as is possible, is the only way to eliminate covid. Go back to the days of polio in the 1950's. Our parents wouldn't let us go swimming or play with certain other kids, and people still came down with polio. Then the vaccine was developed, and polio went away. No one objected when government made the vaccine mandatory. Today, maybe 30% of the country will refuse the vaccine because it was made by republicans, big pharma, people who don't practice my religion, or any other excuse of the day. In my opinion, those people that refuse the vaccine should be relegated to a confined area.

On defense measures, there are many studies that show some masks to be very effective, and others to be next to worthless. You can mandate mask wearing, but do those that are deemed next to worthless count? Is proper fitting to be considered? How does anyone know if the mask was maintained as prescribed and either thrown away after single use or washed every day? Is only 6' the required separation or is it 20' or 25'? Very simple for someone to say mandate a mask, wash your hands, and maintain separation, but very hard to implement properly.

Herd mentality
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 7:15pm

What we’ve learned, and haven’t.

It's November 7th and Covid is supposed to be gone!!

Joe and dems don't need the virus anymore.

So what have we learned? That some people don't care. And they lie.

What haven't we learned? We need to call them on their lies.

duane
Sun, 11/08/2020 - 11:57am

Herd,
Is this when we learn of President elect Biden's plan [that he has been saving since early this year] to defeat Covid 19 and save all the lives and end the suffering? Or doesn't that matter to you now that he is elected?

It's a mentality
Mon, 11/09/2020 - 10:21pm

of a Herd.

duane,
Did you blame Governor Gretchen for the deaths in the nursing homes? If you did, why? Especially since the legislature just passed legislation matching her EO?

What President Biden recommends will be placing Experts in medicine and epidemiology instead of business and who knows what, but those experts that you seem to think, according to your previous comment:

If we [the uninformed residents of Michigan] can learn what we need to do [not how we have to do it], we are creative, we are adaptable, and we know how to when it works, then we can we can apply our collective thinking/doing develop effective practices.
___________________________________________________________

Wear a mask! Is that simple enough for you? And if you are asking what you need to do, but don't want to be told how to do it? You will do what you are doing now. Flagrantly not doing what the health experts want you to. You are confused because you are listening to someone who asked the EXPERTS if you could inject bleach, huff Lysol and have Blade the daywalker shoot you with UV bullets!

Why doesn't that concern thinking conservatives?

Do you tell your heart doctor they are stupid and don't know what they are talking about? Do you do it to your mechanic? Your dentist? Your accountant? Why not? And why do it now, to viral disease experts? During a pandemic!

duane
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 12:56am

It's,
No, I wasn't like candidate Biden blaming the President for all the Covid deaths [“It is what it is because you are who you are,” Biden said at the first presidential debate, referencing Trump’s response to a question about the COVID-19 death toll earlier this month when the president said: “They are dying. That's true. And you — it is what it is.”], I didn't and don't blame the Governor. It is a pandemic, people are dying all over the world. The best thing we have going for us is the special effort pharmaceutical companies, with the support of the federal government, that will prevent future deaths and suffering [see the vaccines, see the anti viral treatments].
Do you understand that the masks you and Biden are so sure of only reduce the virus being expelled by a carrier of the virus. Even the N95 masks reserved for the medical care people doesn't fully protect them, it would take a half or full face respirator with a cartage the could filter out the virus. To end or control the virus will require those dedicated scientists working on the vaccines and treatment. Something neither you nor Biden/Harris seem to grasp or understand the science, a bit of biology and chemistry and physics, to realize how virus works, is transported/transferred. There is too much beyond the politics for you to realize how what has been achieve this year. Not only the research, but the work to design and build the means to manufacture [that will include multiple steps of purification over and above the making of the active vaccine and other medicines. Pfizer will have 50million doses of the vaccine this years and in the hundreds of millions next year. Biden and you are clueless on what it takes to go from being confronted by and unknow/never seen before virus to the means/methods to deliver a vaccine that will protect over 90% of those taking the vaccine.
As for you asininely quoting of 'fake news', the the fact was there was/is a uv treatment [which even you 'experts' have acknowledge kills the virus] that is done in the blood stream of living people. Get right of you want to try to belittle someone.
As for the the experts, my doctor, my dentist, my accountant, my plumber, my carpenter, go down the list, I ask question and ask about the consequences, the part I can play as part of the team, you see I am not a lazy as you are and I did stay in school to learn chemistry, physics, math, the technology of applying those sciences, I have learn risk analysis/management. I have worked with 'experts', toxicologist, medical professional, the industrial hygienists, I have had to read the toxicology sheets on new chemicals to assess the risk potential. I am not as ignorant as you show yourself to be when you apply your politics to science. I haven't told a doctor or 'expert' they are stupid, but I have challenged them, I have learned how questioned and facilitate people opening up their thinking to create new possibilities. Just like you belittle the Trump by claiming he to people to drink chemicals, but if asked in the right way about in situ treatment much like how a vaccine works you being looking at other means such as exposing blood to uv in the way kidney dialysis has be done for generations.
I am one of those 'deporables', those 'uneducated' and what every emotional epithets you want to throw. But one I do know we need a disrupter in politics [and we still do] that will without violence break the practices of the past and allow the people to remake them for the future. I am not so superficial to be put off by ruff and challenging personality to latch onto a frail 'old man' because the later makes me feel comfortable.
I have too many experiences, and heard too many political lies [like the one that create a black granite wall on the Washington Mall]. You revel in the drivel and elitism Biden/Harris spread, I would much rather listen to someone that is a disrupter, is willing to trust in the collective wisdom of the people and marketplace, and is willing to risk upsetting others to get necessary change.

middle of the mit
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 10:27pm

Let's see if I can post under my handle again!

duane, I am not going to go through your bashing of me and Joe Biden for looking to those experts while President Trump was confiscating PPE from the States he forced to work on their own. So much for United States, huh?

You are waxing endlessly about how the things that the health experts are telling us we need to do are stupid and don't work. Where is YOUR degree in epidemiology? Where do you get the credentials to give health advice? Why aren't you the one running the countries pandemic response?

{{{As for you asininely quoting of 'fake news', the the fact was there was/is a uv treatment [which even you 'experts' have acknowledge kills the virus] that is done in the blood stream of living people. Get right of you want to try to belittle someone.}}}

Could you show us proof of this before you call me asinine? Cause I just looked for it, and couldn't find what you say is true!

https://www.wired.com/story/heres-what-disinfectants-and-uv-light-really...

{{{UV light—particularly the shortest wavelength, known as UVC—kills viruses by damaging their DNA or RNA, crippling their ability to make copies of themselves. Hospitals have been using UVC lamps and even UVC robots to disinfect the air in rooms. But just as with disinfectants, UVC light doesn’t discriminate in what it kills. This light can also damage human cells, potentially harming the cornea, causing sunburn, and raising the risk of skin cancer, says physicist David Brenner, who is director of the Center for Radiological Research at Columbia University. That’s why hospital staff turn on the lamps only when the rooms are empty.

Theoretically, it would be possible to snake a tube with a UV light into a person’s airway, but that would be a very bad idea. “That would be damaging to all the cells inside the body,” says Brenner. And in any case, the light wouldn’t reach all areas of the lungs. “The UV light can’t go around corners,” he says. “I don’t think you’d be killing all the viruses by any means.” Any remaining viruses would simply multiply, leaving the person still trying to fight off a Covid-19 infection—but now with potential cellular damage from the UV light.}}}

And with that, I don't think the rest of your post has any merit. If you were as educated and smart as you say you are, you would've known that UV light kills more than just viruses inside your body.

What wrong with Vietnam war memorial? You don't believe that war happened? Is this why you prefer to listen to "disrupters", as opposed to those who are trying to work together for our benefit? And I wouldn't go around talking about collective anything. Your people might put you in my camp.

duane
Thu, 11/12/2020 - 8:36pm

middle,

There you go again saying putting words in other people's mouths because that is what you want to hear. I didn't the 'experts' were stupid I was saying is that what they claimed aren't the panacea for Covid 19. You seem unable to grasp the what is risk management and what is elimination. Biden has been claiming wearing a mask will end the pandemic, I described that the masks he is talking about on limits the amount of virus people project and reduces the amount of virus people ingest. A fitted respirator would be the only means to prevent either.
The other part you don't seem to grasp is the consideration of the whole picture, people have lives to live and simply excluding the whole of those lives [which 'experts' do when talking about their area of expertise] is neither practical nor feasible. Life has to go on both for [physical health and mental health]. Chlorine[gas] is deadly at over 400ppm and yet is one of the most effective known disinfectants, it is use in homes across the world, it is used to make our drinking water safe. It is all about dosage and individual. There is an allowable dosage of uv and we balance the risk with reward. The uv was used as and example of a concept and a question to break the 'experts' out of their established thinking. You understand that OSHA has established a time weighted average for a workplace exposure, in other words even OSHA acknowledges there is an acceptable uv dosage. If you ever worked with 'experts' you learn that they have develop their knowledge by experience and the path of that experience can put boundaries on their thinking [what has always work impedes considering other possibilities. And that leads to the value of a disrupter [one who attacks all of those established barriers]. You seem so locked into what you are comfortable with that you will not consider anything else, when have you ask how could things be done differently to get a desired results.
The comment about the Wall, was to emphasize the impact political lies can have. The lie that LBJ made, to enhance his political career, create the war in Vietnam and that was the foundation of that Wall. Whom ever claims that wearing a mask will end the pandemic is telling a lie.
You can't even accept that the publics diversity of perspective, their collective wisdom is better than a government designated 'elite'. You don't know how to listen to people with a differing view than yours, you don't know how to ask questions to learn about who you are so opposed to.
I have to say I have no people, I like to listen to all people, I have learn that asking questions and listening is the most effective way to find the best answers to choose from, and those that are the most hardened in their views are the least likely to be part of the best solution to any problem. Those that have become so fixated on Trump and his personality can't grasp how he has exposed the failing of so many institutions, such as the news media, the federal government agencies, the political institution/community in Washington DC, and so on.

middle of the mit
Fri, 11/13/2020 - 10:01pm

duane,

{{{There you go again saying putting words in other people's mouths because that is what you want to hear. I didn't the 'experts' were stupid I was saying is that what they claimed aren't the panacea for Covid 19.}}}

That is a round about way of saying they don't know what they are talking about which = stupid or uninformed. Nobody has a panacea, what we have are ways to inhibit the spread until we can get a vaccine, which it is looking more and more upwards. Did you participate in that?

The simple masks will help get things opened up. I want that too ya know! But you have to see what is going on, don't you?

{{{. There is an allowable dosage of uv and we balance the risk with reward. The uv was used as and example of a concept and a question to break the 'experts' out of their established thinking.

. If you ever worked with 'experts' you learn that they have develop their knowledge by experience and the path of that experience can put boundaries on their thinking [what has always work impedes considering other possibilities.

You can't even accept that the publics diversity of perspective, their collective wisdom is better than a government designated 'elite'. You don't know how to listen to people with a differing view than yours, you don't know how to ask questions to learn about who you are so opposed to.}}}

Well duane, when you propose to put UVC light into someones body and it will kill my cells along with the virus and I will still have the virus......I think I will pass on your "outside of the box " thinking. And is your problem with the experts that speak with Govn't officials? Why? Aren't most of them independent doctors? Like, ya know, part of the collective wisdom of the Free market?

Yeah I get it that Vietnam was "started on a lie" and that it was a stupid war. How do you feel about the still on going war in Iraq?

Trump didn't expose any failure except his own. When you people in places to run things who are ideologically opposed to the office they have, that is what you will get, failure because that is what they want you to see and believe. You don't put oil barons on the board of the EPA.

And the press sucks because they don't call out the lies. duane, I used to be a conservative. You can't tell me that I am stuck in my ways. Something changed with that party and your type of thinking is part of it.

I would give a pass on sticking that UVC light down your throat though. I am not an elite. You can take advice from me.

duane
Sun, 11/15/2020 - 7:54pm

middle,

No, this is back to you hear only what you are listening for. How would you define and ‘expert’? I commonly see them as someone that knows more and more about less and less. They work to narrow what they think about. The longer they work in a particular environment the more focused they become on what it takes to succeed in that environment. Let use Dr. Fauci as a quasi-example, since I don’t know enough about the specific work he did on AIDS/HIV. In the 1990s he was doing on the HIV virus and he learn much about the virus and the mechanisms to control it, and the methods for delivering those controls. He became an ‘expert’ in immune suppression, over the years he has not forgotten what he learned and the knowledge he developed, he has built on that ‘expertise’ adding administrative responsibilities and develop special knowledge of working the government system and interactions with the medical community. I suspect that he has used his well-established ‘expertise’ repeatedly over the years. And that regular usage reinforced his experience approach to applying and offering his ‘expertise.’ However, such reinforcing experience has the potential of turning experience into habit and habits reinforce that they have been doing and discourage offering new perspectives on each related conversations/problems. The knowledge is still valuable and how it is applied is credible and effective. There is a risk that looking differently at a new problem becomes more challenging, so a good practice is including different perspectives into the conversations to open good minds up to new thinking. Challenging questions and approach can prove to be a constructive to stir up the thinking. Do you see how this is not calling anyone wrong or stupid or uninformed? Or you still doubt that there is such a thing as stimulating ‘outside the box thinking’ or that people [‘experts’] can create a box around their thinking?

An obvious approach is to inject a concern outside the field of expertise, but still related to the problem. This happened by in mid-March when then President Trump began talking about reopening the economy [it seemed he got a lot of push back and stimulated a lot of new thinking and conversations].

I had the opportunity to be part of a standing team [toxicologist, medical doctor, industrial hygienist, chemical researcher, and a risk management representative [the one providing day to day operating experience perspective], that established the allowable limits for associated the proposed chemical. Part of the company culture was diversity of perspective and that was why we had such a group, members were replaced but their functions were always represented. We would all receive copies of all the information available from around the world about experience with the particular chemical and relevant isomers. We would discuss the exposes that had occurred and reactions, what was the means for contact, how it entered the system, what were the possible actions or events that might create the exposure, treatments, etc. and we would talk about how to prevent or mitigate exposures. It was all parts of the conversations that impacted the thinking of each member and the recommendations/reasoning we made. All team members had working credibility to be placed on the team, and the toxicologist was from the in-house toxicology lab which was well establish [opened back in the 1930s] with international standing. I tell you all of this to help you appreciate that what I am talking about is not about the individual, but about human nature and how practices/protocols/processes need to accommodate the human side of activities, decision making, collaborations, actions plans.

You do realize that the protective value differs based on the nature of the mask being used, a polyester ‘gator’ is likely to have little or nor impingement value, a cotton tee-shirt pulled up over the nose/mouth is likely to provide more protection, a woven fabric [cotton] will provide limited protection, a random fiber pressed dust mask provides limited protection, even the N95 mask has limitation to its protective value, and yet all of those seem to be acceptable to the Governor. We are already using the masks, everyplace I go where there are people they wear masks [except those most walking along the waters edge or in the public parks], and yet we are hearing of an every daily number of Covid cases. Masks are the answer, they aren’t tipping point, they are only a tool with limited capabilities [the mask that the Governor requires does not prevent all virus from getting into the air nor does it prevent every virus organism, there is a well establish respirator criteria for such protection. The way we will return pre Covid ‘normal’ will involve vaccines, antiviral treatments, actions of individuals and organizations. Currently as best I can tell the people/the public are not represented in the conversations about how to make the return.
As for the putting uv into a person’s body would you consider an approach to kidney dialysis, in which the blood is run through a filter system outside the blood and the treated blood is then returned to the body. If the uv exposure was to the flowing blood outside the body couldn’t that allow for better management of the risk that you are concerned with. The point of the uv idea is to open up the thinking of how to approach the delivery of treatment. We begin already have numerable kidney dialysis facilities around the country, why not consider a scheme of treatment that would simply replace the active unit operations and begin treating a different type of patient. You do recall the uv comment was very early in the pandemic long before there was the possibility of a vaccine, a time to be thinking outside the ‘box’ of established thinking.

As for the Iraq war, I think very much better about the fighting in Syria then four years ago, I think better about Iraq today then back then [Trump seems to using much less to build his political image than his predecessor], I think better about the potential in the middle east with the recent diplomatic agreement between some of the Arab countries and Israel, I think better about containing Iran than anytime in the last couple of decades. That agreement was another of those disruptive moments, the ending of the PLO veto power over any agreement has proven to be the disruption of the politics in the middle east.

Sure he has exposed the failure of many others, look how the news media has dropped in public trust in the last four year by being so blatantly prejudicial in their political coverage, or how the Democrat leaders [Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, Whitmer. etc.] with there damning partisan politics. Do you think the Mueller investigation of the Trump/Russia collusion was anything other than political efforts to overturn a legitimate election], the demanding of medical supplies and hospital facilities by Cuomo and Whitmer and then not using them, not even needing them and now condemning Trump for his failures to support the states is anything other partisan politics. Obama bragged about all he need was a pen and a phone and he didn’t need to work with Congress and now Biden is bragging about how he will write a single Executive order to wipeout every Trump executive action. You don’t see those as failures exposed by Trump?

Sure, you put people that are regulated by organization such as proven executives from companies that do the work being regulated. Have you ever talk with a government regulator that knows how to operate processes that they are regulating? The regulators spend their whole career developing their knowledge of the regulatory process and regulation, they do spend anytime learning what they are regulating. I speak from experience I was once ask to present my employer experiences and practices as they applied to a proposed OSHA regulation on confined space entry, of all the people who spoke at an OSHA public hearing, I was one of only two that had ever made such an entry and was the only that had be responsible for others working in such a space. I had the opportunity to invite those OSHA people to visit an operating plant, to see the nature of the work they were regulating, to see how we controlled and protect those making the entry. The OSHA people were amazed by the scale of what they were regulating, the nature of what they were regulating, and the practical application of what they were regulating. They admitted during the visit that they had no idea of what all was involved and how it could be effectively be managed [we had been developing our practices for generations and applied the around the world]. You want to exclude all of the knowledge, all of that experience, you want to exclude that perspective from the government regulators because of a personal prejudice. Prejudice comes in many ways and it is obstructive and destructive each time it is applied. I was later involved in supporting a regulation proposed by a group of companies, there was resistance to the regulations because it was performance based and OSHA where hesitant to enact it because they lack the experience to enforce it, they ask my employer if they would provide and instructor to train their first couple of waves of compliance officers, I did that training and taught them how we ensure that all we include in the regulation was practiced. The point is that the best ones to learn from are the ones that make what the rules require work every day. FDR took this approach when he created the SEC and Joseph Kennedy was made its first chairman. Kennedy was notorious for how he manipulated the stock market during the Great Depression, he was an extremely knowledgeable person to be part of creating the rules that would prevent such manipulation in the future. I had later met a MiOSHA compliance officer who had been part of that first wave of training on the PSM regulation and he said he learned things from me that he had never considered before and he felt they made him more effective both with that regulation and with others.
My employer at the time used that approach when it needed to break down the ‘fences’ around our company, it was by creating advisory panels to review our chemical related projects. The sites and company globally invited local and global environmental activitist and noted interested parties to be on respective panels [Greenpeace declined but the others joined] to offer their prespectives on what was being planned/designed [back to the theme of diversity of perspectives].

I agree with you about sticking a uv light down someone’s throat [such as mine], but I would be interested in exploring other means to exposing the Covid 19 virus to uv.
Similar to you experience as a ‘conservative’, I was raised a ‘yellow dog’ Democrat what changed that was the blind loyalty to the Party and those in leadership [much how we see Pelosi and Schumer demanding of their members].
As always you give me reason to think and encourage me to articulate that thinking.

middle of the mit
Mon, 11/16/2020 - 2:12pm

{{{{{{{There you go again saying putting words in other people's mouths because that is what you want to hear. I didn't the 'experts' were stupid I was saying is that what they claimed aren't the panacea for Covid 19.}}}

That is a round about way of saying they don't know what they are talking about which = stupid or uninformed.
__________________________________________

{{{{No, this is back to you hear only what you are listening for. How would you define and ‘expert’? I commonly see them as someone that knows more and more about less and less.}}}}

Isn't that the same thing as stupid or uninformed? Otherwise you could tell us how people can know more about less and not be stupid. OR, you could use the same dictionary we all use and stop trying to "newspeak" your words

See what you are doing right now is PROJECTING your beliefs and how you feel about them onto others without even knowing what or how Dr Fauci or the rest of the doctors are doing or how they are doing it. You HAVE NO CLUE as to what is going on, you just know it isn't what you would do. So go duane. Show the "experts" up! Show us all how it is done!! Because I would bet that NOBODY is trying to treat this with the same thought pattern as AIDS OR HIV. How do I KNOW this? Those aren't viral diseases. Is that enough common sense for ya?

{{{{You do realize that the protective value differs based on the nature of the mask being used, a polyester ‘gator’ is likely to have little or nor impingement value,}}}

Well, at least you are opening up to the facts masks do work! You may see compliance where you are, but I see a lot defiance! Noses poking out, masks protecting peoples chins and beards rather than their mouth or nose, and frankly duane, the masks do work both ways. But they are meant mainly to stop asymptomatic people from being viral vectors to everyone. But if symptoms, why do I have to wear one? This is your type of "I am better than the experts" type of thinking and IT IS why this is spreading the way it is. As a percentage of the population? My rural areas spread it faster than urban areas do now. How does that happen?

{{{. The way we will return pre Covid ‘normal’ will involve vaccines, antiviral treatments, actions of individuals and organizations. }}}

YES duane! That is also the ONLY WAY to safely herd immunity something. Could you tell that to those who think they "know more than the experts"?

{{{As for the putting uv into a person’s body would you consider an approach to kidney dialysis, in which the blood is run through a filter system outside the blood and the treated blood is then returned to the body. }}}

duane, we have already been through this. I understand it is a different process, but do you understand that there is NO SAFE exposure for people to UVC light? Not even in the same room! How would you do this? And Covid ISN'T IN YOUR BLOOD! It's IN YOUR LUNGS! Could you tell us a safe way accomplish that, now that a non-intellectual has informed where Covid is in the body? Ideas with no thought behind them, let alone common sense isn't going to open up anyone to anything at all! That is usually what gets you put on the 'don't let that person near anything important' list.

Sure duane. Vietnam was started on a lie, but you love some war in the middle east. How.....consistent of you.

Dude, you know who failed?

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/741326915/new-accusations-for-epstein-as-...

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/5/17192716/scott-pruitt-resigns-epa-administr...

https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2018/10/ryan-zinke-haiburton-int...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/06/defense-secretary-patrick-shanah...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/michael-flynn-deepens-...

https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2020/02/18/miami-woman-do...

How about Rick Scott? https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/rick-scott-is-an-odd-choice-to-l...

{{{In this spirit comes the announcement that Florida Senator Rick Scott intends to deliver on President Trump’s promise that the GOP “will soon be known as the party of health care

“They are going to come up with something really spectacular,” the president said.

If by spectacular, he means a candidate who was at the helm of a company that pleaded guilty to historic efforts to defraud Medicare, the president has found his man. In the 1990s, Scott was the CEO of Columbia/HCA, a company that, under his direction, owned more than 340 hospitals, 135 surgery centers, and 550 home-health locations by the time Scott resigned in 1997. That year, federal agents announced an investigation into whether or not the company defrauded Medicare and Medicaid on a massive scale. Turns out, they did: According to Politifact’s summary of the settlement Columbia/HCA made with the Justice Department, the company took the following actions while Scott was CEO:

Columbia billed Medicare, Medicaid, and other federal programs for tests that were not necessary or ordered by physicians;
The company attached false diagnosis codes to patient records to increase reimbursement to the hospitals;
The company illegally claimed non-reimbursable marketing and advertising costs as community education;
Columbia billed the government for home health-care visits for patients who did not qualify to receive them.

As part of the settlement, Columbia/HCA agreed to plead guilty to 14 corporate felonies — charges that involve financial penalties, but no jail time. (Corporations are people, but they cannot be sent to prison.) }}}

Must be nice huh? This is not to mention The health secretary that was trading stock before legislation was passed, Richard Burr and Kelly Loughler selling healthcare stocks after confidential meetings dealing with the Covid.

Come on man! Man up!

Release the unredacted Mueller report! Why did Flynn, Manafort, Stone et al have contacts with Russian foreign agents? Why were some of these people acting as unregistered foreign agents while working for America?

You can try to throw out the fact that Jared was confiscating PPE all ya want. Doesn't mean it ain't true!

And the Governors may have not used what was sent because it may have been sent too late or maybe they already did the heavy lifting of getting it themselves. Who knows? Do you?

{{{Obama bragged about all he need was a pen and a phone and he didn’t need to work with Congress and now Biden is bragging about how he will write a single Executive order to wipeout every Trump executive action. You don’t see those as failures exposed by Trump?}}}

Hey dude! Didn't Trump run things with a pen a phone and Twitter? Your hypocrisy on E.O's is no longer accepted. Especially when Trump used EO.'s to undo Obamas EO's and also

https://americanindependent.com/gop-hypocrisy-donald-trump-barack-obama-...

Obama issued 147 executive orders in his first four years as president, according to data from the Federal Register. Trump has already issued 166 executive orders in a shorter time period, according to Federal Register data. But Republicans aren't attacking Trump for governing like a king. Instead, they've praised Trump's attempts to legislat

https://www.thedailybeast.com/peter-navarro-claims-the-lord-created-exec...

{{{Sure, you put people that are regulated by organization such as proven executives from companies that do the work being regulated. Have you ever talk with a government regulator that knows how to operate processes that they are regulating? }}}

Yeah, I have. Ever try to get something cleared up with your cable company? Ever try to get your private doctor or medical facility or insurance company to give you a price on something? And conservatives say we need Government to FORCE them to tell us what the PRIVATE SECTOR charges! You sure want to go down this path?

{{{The point is that the best ones to learn from are the ones that make what the rules require work every day.}}}

That is why EMPLOYEES should be the ones regulating the workforce safety standards along with OSHA and NOT employers. After all, whose safety are we looking out for and who deals with it on an hourly basis, daily?

{{{I agree with you about sticking a uv light down someone’s throat [such as mine], but I would be interested in exploring other means to exposing the Covid 19 virus to uv.}}}

Until you realize that you can't introduce UVC light into your body, under any dose, you will keep bringing this up, won't you? When are going to realize you can't put UVC light into any part of your body where the virus lurks? And unless you can figure out a way to take your lungs out of your body, turn them inside out and then expose them? And even if you could do that? You are still GOING TO HAVE CELL DAMAGE!

{{{Similar to you experience as a ‘conservative’, I was raised a ‘yellow dog’ Democrat what changed that was the blind loyalty to the Party and those in leadership [much how we see Pelosi and Schumer demanding of their members]}}}

There isn't much difference between a yellow dog dem and a conservative ya know? And you want to talk about blind loyalty? The Trumpsters are now going after their vaunted "Fair and Balanced News station" because they aren't towing the Trumpster line.

Is that blind loyalty? And do you really think that describes me? Or even most dems?

duane
Sun, 11/22/2020 - 1:00am

middle,
I am saying, to become an ‘expert’ you need to focus your efforts to grow your knowledge and understanding of a subject to be a recognized ‘expert’ in that subject, know more and more about less and less. The risk such demand of singular focus is to narrow the range of experiences and thinking about such a topic. An academic/research virologist ‘expert’ is more likely focused on the molecule of the virus, while a government virologist will be more focused on the system and manage the system to implement delivery of a vaccine or antiviral treatment, and yet what maybe a controlling factor is the human element [the attitude/actions of the people becoming infected. Another analogy is, a quote from Abraham Maslow, “To the man who only has a hammer, everything he encounters begins to look like a nail.” What the ‘experts’ may benefit from is someone describing how a screw drive maybe effective. This not to mean use a screw drive in place of the hammer, but it suggests to the expert to look at the problem a bat differently and consider the more unusual possibilities. No one is stupid, no one is uninformed, just open you thinking beyond what it has been.

I am sharing experiences, if the process is acting as if it is being contaminated with water above where water is being introduced into the system then you need to stop being limited in you thinking by gravity, by the direction of the flow of the process stream and begin looking for different ways water could be introduce at that point in the system. No being wrong, no one being uninformed, but everyone being limited in their thinking by what they know.

When the attitudes/actions of people are a critical factor in solving a problem, then the experts need the perspective of the an unbiased [in the case of Covid, not have been trained in the use and wearing of respiratory protection, masks] to encourage expanding how the ‘experts’ look at the problem. Remember hearing the phrase, ‘can’t see the forest for the trees’? That is just another example of how people, ‘experts’ include can miss seeing critical parts of a problem/solution. They are neither stupid or uninformed.

You have just told all that read our conversation about what it will take to protect the population. The challenge is in the implementation, and that is more than the Governor simply giving an order or an ‘expert’ such as Dr. Fauci telling people to wear masks and stary home.

It does seem the blood does pass through the lungs and that could make an effective means for delivering treatment that attacks the Covid, but that neither here nor there since the science and the pharmaceutical companies are succeeding in developing the treatments.

Have you heard the generals and the grunts that have been in war talk about how much they hate war, but they know that as long as someone is willing to use violence/war to get their way that unless someone is willing to battle against them we will all be enslaved?

I have already acknowledged that Trump has written his share of Executive orders, but the point was that Obama bragged about how he would use it circumvent another branch of government [the Legislative], and Biden brags that with a single executive order wipeout all of the ones Trump has written with out regard for what they achieved. Which is it a tool for a President to address immediate administrative problems or a political tool to avoid having to convince the Legislative representatives from both Parties? If Obama’s agreement with Iran was so good why didn’t he take it to the Senate to get their commitment/acceptance?

Who better to be part of regulating the cable industry than someone that has had the job working around the regulations? My experience with workplace and process safety was build on the application of work done by those who as address the risks long before I was out of school and our efforts were to improve on what those predecessors had done. The regulators did even know all of the ways people were being exposed to the risks they claimed to be trying to control, until they were drawn out on to the plant floor to see the work they were trying to regulate, in many cases there was 50 years of success that they never knew about, that they never asked about. In the case of ergonomics the regulators had only listened to the ergonomists and unions when developing a new regulation, they wanted every job to be accessed by an ergonomics ‘experts’, we looked at the risks, at the work stations, and determined the best starting point was to provide a tool for the person doing the task to do an evaluation of that task, rate it, propose a solution, reevaluate, and if it had no sufficiently reduce the risk then call in an ergonomics ‘expert’. The principle we used was that it was more effective to recognized the person doing the task as the job ‘expert’ and train them on basic ergonomics than expecting an ergonomic ‘expert’ to become a job expert for every job we had. Our tools and experience prove more effective than even the ergonomic ‘experts’ has envisioned possible.

The ‘yellow dog’ Democrat is at the extreme of loyal Democrats, conservatives covers a wide range of people [many my say the libertarians are in that group and nearing the extreme]. I stop watching cable news, national news stations earlier this year. I do periodically watch Fox’s Th Five but that political commentary bent toward providing entertainment and I watch with my wife so it is all so a social connection.

I may ask you about whether you are of a political bent, or why you lean a certain way, or even offer that what you are saying suggests you are of a certain persuasion, but without your declaration I have know way of knowing nor would I label you of any certain group, and you show enough independent thinking to prevent stereotyping to such an extreme.

Herd mentality
Thu, 11/12/2020 - 8:19pm

duane, I was simply stating that I am not part of the Herd, nor do I have the mentality of the herd.

Did Biden blame the deaths on Trump? Or did he say that there would be less dead if the President had done something besides say OPEN UP! LIBERATE MI!?

Our GOP legislators have blamed the Governor for the nursing home deaths, and then they dusted off her EO for the nursing homes. So the same law they said made old people die, they just gave a full fledged backing to.

The masks? Did you see this? https://www.freep.com/story/tech/reviewedcom/2020/11/11/new-cdc-guidelin...

It's hilarious that you tell me and Biden we don't understand virology while the top virologist in the nation facepalms and covers his face whenever the President speaks about the virus. I suppose Dr Fauci doesn't know anything about viruses either, huh?

{{Biden and you are clueless on what it takes to go from being confronted by and unknow/never seen before virus to the means/methods to deliver a vaccine that will protect over 90% of those taking the vaccine.}}

Should we go back and see how conservatives acted when H1N1 or Ebola came to America? I don't think you want to do that. Remember Chris Christie wanting to quarantine the health care worker who came back from Africa?

https://time.com/3543163/christie-ebola-quarantine-kaci-hickox/

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/conservatives-ebola-conspiracies

Mike Huckabee: “I just don’t believe them anymore”

“I’m feeling a little sick myself. But it’s not Ebola. I’m just sick of a government that I’m paying for telling me not to worry and just trust them

Donald Trump: “Why would anybody trust our government to handle this crisis?”

John Nolte: “The administration would cover this up”

Breitbart News’s John Nolte

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/white-house/conservatives-attack...

H1N1 killed 12,000 Americans duane. We are now over 230,000 and your side is telling us to herd immunity it. Hence the Herd mentality.

As far as the asinine comment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33QdTOyXz3w

Watch and hear with your ears and your own eyes and see if it is fake news!!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29374760/

Patients and methods: Partial body UVB irradiation was performed during the routine dialysis session. Twenty-two patients took part, with a mean age of 61.7 (range=35-81) years.

https://www.cnet.com/news/uvc-light-wands-kill-viruses-experts-warn-majo...

duane, do you notice the difference between UVB and UVC?

I still have to ask. If you are such an expert in every field in every situation, why aren't you running things? Why are you posting on this board instead of the elite searching you out for your expertise? Could you explain?

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/apr/24/context-what-donald-trump...

The briefing transcript shows that Trump did not say people should inject themselves with bleach or alcohol to treat the coronavirus. He was asking officials on the White House coronavirus task force whether they could be used in potential cures.

See duane and Bridge? It's almost like when candidate Trump "implied" Megyn Kelly was a bitch, without actually calling her one. Of course, if I did that to your wife or daughter......(not that I would, but ).....you wouldn't give me the same deference!

The "disrupter" in politics that we needed was Bernie..about 15-20 years ago. He is the only disrupter in politics that wants to do something without violence, and the things he wants to do will eventually help EVERYONE. Even the wealthy. Heck, I would go so far as to say that his policies might keep the hoi polloi from beating down the gates of the wealthy.

Could you tell us all what lie led to a granite wall in DC? The only black granite wall I know of is the Vietnam war memorial. Are you saying that was a lie? America wasn't fighting commies in Vietnam?

Could you please define elitism? Because from what I consider elitism.......you portray yourself as someone who knows more than those who have studied their entire lives to try to understand something they have been studying and you are telling them you know more than they do.

It's time you backed it up.

duane
Sun, 11/15/2020 - 1:20am

Herd,
Biden actually blamed Trump for 200,000, “It is what it is because you are who you are. That's why it is. The president has no plan,” Mr. Biden said.
I really am not responsible what some Republicans of any Republican says, I am not even responsible for what our children once they became adults, no matter how much want to blame others you don’t like what they say.
I don’t find where I was telling you about virology, rather my comments are about managing a crisis, which are commonly managed by people experienced in crisis and not the science or technology ‘experts’. If you believe that the only concern is a virus and the rest of life needs to stand still until that is resolved, then you would likely be disappointed in the living or lack of living we would have. I would not listen to one virologist, that would likely distort the ideas considered. The more impactful an action is, the more important it should include diversity of perspective before being enacted. In the case of Dr. Fauci I would definitely want to hear from one or more virologist with different perspectives, such as one from industrial research, one from academia, one from private practice, and then knowledgeable people in other fields that will include more perspectives on the whole of our national community. Once you have got this group of different perspectives, then you need to ask questions that will stimulate their thinking outside of the established protocols.
I seldom view the linked items include without some suggestion about what I will be viewing and why. You say one is about fake news or not, but without knowing what it is why invest the time to view it.
Only you seem to think I have an expertise; I see it only as offering a different perspective and encouraging thinking/questions.
As for the comments about the women in my life it would depend on the context, since all three in their professions/jobs they made decisions/actions that could evoke emotions with such comments may fit the situations. You may want to appreciate women are working in all fields and situations and can give and take as necessary.
Bernie isn’t a disrupter; he has neither the stamina nor the strength of personality to make change happen. Do you honestly believe that Bernie would survive the attacks, abuses, lies, etc. that Trump has had to deal with and still make changes happen? Do you think Bernie would have been effective to effectively work around the whole of the news media to get his message out, to manipulate the media to talk about any topic he wanted [even when it was insignificant]? Did they ever ignore a ‘tweet’ of his?
You raise a new question when you say “we needed was Bernie..about 15-20 years ago.”, what problems would he have solved? As for no violence, I wonder whose followers [‘progressives’] you think have been active in Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, etc. this summer.
The Gulf of Tonkin resolution that LBJ signed was based on a lie that LBJ made, his claim that a USS Maddox was attack by the North Vietnamese. That resolution was a political that create the Vietnam War, I mention that to emphasize the impact that political lies can have. JFK before LBJ expanded the military role to enhance his political image, LBJ promoted the war to enhance his political image, Nixon also used the was to enhance his political image. How many of Biden/Harris campaign claims/promises made to enhance their political images and what considerations have been for the potential unintended consequences?
‘Elitists’ are those that believe that a small, elite, group of people should be making the choices for the whole of society. Whether it is a self-selected group, such as those burning businesses in Seattle, etc., those government employees that deny non-profit status because they don’t like the topics/politics of the people in the organization, those that would displace the marketplace with government control the products/services provided to the public. Any small groups that would usurp the freedom of choices in the community. I am one who believes in the collective wisdom of the community, such as the market place, over the thinking of ‘elite’ groups, whether in the government, in politics. As I have mentioned I strongly encourage conversations with groups with a diversity of perspectives, it discourages a narrowing of the thinking and can open people up to new/different ways to consider a problem, it can create new ideas and new approaches. It isn't about being smarter, it is about challenging their thinking in a way that makes them consider things they aren't confortable with.
I am surprised that you don’t challenge my ideas by asking pointed questions about why and how I think suggests would work. I wonder why and how a structure conversation with a group of diverse perspectives would work.

Herd mentality
Sun, 11/15/2020 - 5:29pm

duane,

Don't you remember the President telling us it will all be gone by Easter? If we don't test, there won't be any virus?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-admin-seizing-ppe/

This is after he told the States they are on their own. I like the way you even dodge personal responsibility.

{{{I don’t find where I was telling you about virology, rather my comments are about managing a crisis, which are commonly managed by people experienced in crisis and not the science or technology ‘experts’. }}}

Actually, from what I have seen those experts team together and work together to inform the public how best to stay safe and how not to contract or spread whatever it is they are looking at. And then the other experts show us how a one person infection can spread exponentially and how we can track and stop it. But I suppose you do know more than all these people put together.

You don't really think this all works like a corporation do you? In a corporation, there is ONE person in charge and you do what they say the way say to do it. That is not how scientists work. So Fauci may be the top doc, but he is no where near the only one.

{{{Only you seem to think I have an expertise; I see it only as offering a different perspective and encouraging thinking/questions.}}}

duane, it's the impression you give. And I don't think I am the only that thinks that. You and the rest of the GOP, from doctors to car wash attendents think we should Herd immunity it. You are telling us you know what is best, but you want to kill my cells with concentrated UVC light that even if humans could have intermittant contact with? It would be less time that what would kill the virus and now didn't even kill the virus, you just killed peoples cells and left them more vulnerable than they were before.

{{{As for the comments about the women in my life it would depend on the context, since all three in their professions/jobs they made decisions/actions that could evoke emotions with such comments may fit the situations}}}

You won't even admit what that sentence was all about, will you?It was about the Press giving the President a Pass on a LIE! And I would never do what he did. But if I did, You and the press would call me on it. Maybe you wouldn't be offended by it, but would you doubt that I implied it?

{{{I seldom view the linked items include without some suggestion about what I will be viewing and why. You say one is about fake news or not, but without knowing what it is why invest the time to view it.}}}

How do you learn anything from others when you won't even look at the information?

{{{Bernie isn’t a disrupter; he has neither the stamina nor the strength of personality to make change happen. Do you honestly believe that Bernie would survive the attacks, abuses, lies, etc. that Trump has had to deal with and still make changes happen? }}}

Bernie can't do what needs to be done for the same reason he has more stamina and can take more criticism than Trump. He is populist that wants to work for the people, while calling himself a Democratic socialist in a country where more than half of us are corporate fascists. So Yeah! Bernie can take the heat! It's the corporate fascists that are bashing him, from both sides of the aisle, ya know.

{{ Do you think Bernie would have been effective to effectively work around the whole of the news media to get his message out, to manipulate the media to talk about any topic he wanted [even when it was insignificant]? }}}

Better question. Do you think the media needed to be manipulated to give time to Trump? And if the media is able to be manipulated, by your guy, why are they called fake, liberal news? And why isn't the President manipulating them now? And you said I couldn't ask the right questions!

{{{You raise a new question when you say “we needed was Bernie..about 15-20 years ago.”, what problems would he have solved?}}}

Well, the way I see it, it's hard to change trade policy when your party has run on Free trade for forty years, and then all of a sudden tell us you care about all the workers that lost their jobs because Joe Biden is sold out to China? What about all the patriotic American corporations that sent their jobs overseas? Did they not lobby for Free trade so they could build their products over seas for cheap and then import them back here, duty and tariff free?

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2020/11/13/opinion-congress-ha...

Oh look! Your side is back on the Free trade deals and now they want to import into other countries duty and tariff free!!

Yeah, I already know that about Vietnam. But we were fighting commies! And you never answered about the NON WMD's that were never found! The only evidence they could find? Empty aluminum tubes that did nothing but tell us what Reagan was letting Saddam do in Iraq to Iran. It's called chemical warfare.

Why bring Joe into this?

Here is where you hurt yourself, the Republican party and here we go.

{{{‘Elitists’ are those that believe that a small, elite, group of people should be making the choices for the whole of society. }}}

Have you seen any of them comments on this site or others about democracy or even letting the people vote with or without an electoral college? Have you seen how conservatives despise the popular vote? Have you seen how they want their legislators (elite) to cancel the peoples votes and certify what they want? Aren't the republicans that say they despise "mob rule"? What side do you really think backed the rule of the Divinity of Kings?

duane, nobody I know on either side condones looting or rioting. As a matter of fact those people are probably not even part of the protest. They are probably anarchists taking advantage of a situation where they can get away with it. I just want to know why the protestors are being gassed while the looters aren't.

{{{ Any small groups that would usurp the freedom of choices in the community}}}

But conservatives tell us all the time that he constitution protects the rights of the minority against the rule of the majority, until they are in the majority.

{{{I am surprised that you don’t challenge my ideas by asking pointed questions about why and how I think suggests would work. I wonder why and how a structure conversation with a group of diverse perspectives would work.}}}

Dude! I ALWAYS challenge you and your ideas with questions!

Why do you NEVER answer the questions? You just run on sentence everything to death with something off topic.

duane
Mon, 11/16/2020 - 11:30pm

Herd,
What have we heard from the ‘experts’ from the beginning, they have never seen this virus [Covid 19] they knowledge and understanding of the virus have been ever changing [even Dr. Fauci] early on did not believe this wasn’t a pandemic, so if your ‘omnificent’ ‘experts’ can get it right to begin with then why are you so sure those listening to the ‘experts’ should be getting it right before they do? It seem you have different standards based on what is convenient to your political or maybe the political view of who you are criticizing. I have no doubt that the ‘experts’ were meeting and talking about this, I am disappointed you don’t appreciate the nature of ‘group think’ especially when it is a group made up of those with a very similar perspective on the topic. Probably the most emphatic example of this what a commercial airlines that crashed in the everglades because of group think in the cockpit, they had a warning light come on that had never done so before and all three in cockpit saw the problem to address as the operability of the light, they all became so preoccupied with the light the ignored all that was happening around them and the plane flew into the everglades killing all on board. The point is that if all have the same perspective, they are at risk of looking at the problem only one way to the exclusion of all other possibilities. Michigan has been in a continuous state of ‘lockdown’ stay at home, wear masks, etc. and yet with all that hear we are with growing numbers of cases. There is no talk by the Governor of other considerations, not even an attempt to draw in new people to conversations about new methods or finding more effective ways to implement existing means of protection, it is very suggestive of that group think, that lack of diversity of perspectives, lack of thinking ‘outside their box.’
You have a preoccupation of justifying those who you like rather then challenging what they are recommending or how it is being implemented. Is it lack of experience, political prejudice, limited education, lack of self confidence that prevents you from asking questions and challenging the status quo? You see, I am not afraid of being wrong because I have learned Edison was right, you learn from each attempt that doesn’t yield the results you want. I have been in that swamp [more than once] where I had to stay focused on the problem of draining the swamp while all kinds of alligators were biting at my back side. And the only way to get the problem solve was change our thinking. [Fortunately for me I had an employer that provide training in challenging the accepted, and attacking the group think].

I am no so sure your vaunted ‘experts’ have been telling the best way to stay safe, the latest Governor’s actions suggest that what those ‘experts’ is proving sufficiently effective. An obvious question they haven’t considered is getting ownership of the means of application, they may have ignore the culture of the communities these practices are to be used.

There you go again trying to put words into my mouth, I have never mention herd immunity, that is something we had herd being supported in Europe [as recall with similar results to what the rest of Europe and the Americas are experiencing].

Obama was right, there are ‘clingers’ in America, only they are the ones with bibles and guns, it is those clinging what they want others to say rather then what is actually being said. My mention of the uv was as an example of challenging the established thinking and trying to simulate innovative/extreme thinking.

As for your implications or inferences, I am was giving you reality check. I was just trying to help you appreciate that the world has changed and your example was from a time a few generations ago. I have seven levels of emotional invectives and I believe each has their value.

You do understand a disrupter is about change, they are focused on results, they are not about being liked, about making nice, they are about success in breaking the accepted and making it into effective. Bernie is not a disrupter because he wants to get along so he goes along, he accepted the system being rigid against him in 2016 so he could run again and lose again, but be seen as a player. All he can do is make pronouncements and doesn’t know how to make change happen. Is Bernie an independent or a Democrat, how is he list officially in the Senate? If he can run a Democrat for President but keeps his Senate seat as an independent, he shows little commitment to change things and be a disrupter. He is just a sideliner who wants to hang around for the accolades but avoid the emotional work required.

Yes, the media, made every effort to belittle and destroy his reputation. A simple example, how the media treated Obama winning a Nobel Prize for doing nothing [he was only months in office] and how they treated Trump being nominated to the break though in middle east diplomacy. He had to circumvent the media to get his accomplishments coverage and manipulate them to keep disrupting their efforts to lie about him. Don’t tell me, you believe the three and half years investigating and reporting on a Russian conspiracy wasn’t a lie.

So, what was the problem, free trade or not free trade? Are you saying the problem that the businesses were claiming free trade but weren’t truly practicing it, and that Bernie was going to come in to make free trade work?

You might want to include Obama on the chemical warfare, do remember is infamous ‘red line’ and fail to act when it was trampled in Syria. The Vietnam war was use as the most extreme example, it evokes the broadest emotions and has the most recognizable icon of recent history.

It is disappointing that you can’t simply challenge what I am saying and have to keep trying to somehow make me into a Republican, the only Party membership my name could have been on was the Democrat Party when my parents were active members. Even in this past election I split my ticket.

As best I can tell mayors of Seattle, Portland, and Minneapolis, withdrew the police during the violence in their towns. Wasn’t there a section called the ‘chop’ where the mayor wouldn’t let the police enter, where violence was happening, the burning of businesses, killing of people. That would fit my description of someone how a person in authority ‘condones’ violence. Oh, aren’t all of those mayors Democrats?

I have not heard any ‘conservative’ say that. As best I can tell the Constitution doesn’t protect anything or anyone, it is the people of the country that bring the words of the Constitution to life and give it meaning. The most disturbing thing happening today is the distain for the Constitution and for what it says, and for all that the people implementing those ideals have achieved for our society today and the hope they have given to the future. An ‘elite’ whether it be a socialist one, a government de facto one, a royal one cannot deliver liberty and hope that the Constitution, its proponents, and the people of this country can. We maybe messy in how we deliver, but we do deliver, we have been able to evolved into an ever better and more abundance community since our inspection.

You do attack what I say, but you never identify a flaw or weakness and show how it falters, you never offer and alternative to what I say. A core theme to my comments are diversity of perspective, but you never comment on it. You talk about ‘experts’ but never show how they can’t get locked into one path of thinking, how they don’t need to be challenged, how the impact of the virus is only about the viral health of people and nothing else matters to them or our society. As best I can recall Trump was the first to talk about the need to open society, to open businesses, to get people back to work, open the schools and reignite the kids learning. The ‘experts’ were so focused on the virus they ignore the whole of a person’s health [mental/physical, Governor Whitmer even shutdown the cancer surgeries, the body repairs, the diagnosing of chronic conditions]. Trump was the first to step open and begin talking about the whole of the problem/picture. It is interesting you still only see the virus as a concern and that the medical ‘experts’ are the ones to listen to and be the advisers to the politicians.

I answer the questions, but not in the way you want them answered. I answer them in ways to instigate thinking, instigate new/different ideas. If you want yes or no answers then you don’t want to think you just want to make your point and go off the disparage another perspective.

Herd immunity
Wed, 11/18/2020 - 3:24am

duane, you do realize you are part of the Herd, don't ya? And I am not?

Experts didn't know what they were facing with a NEW disease. Yeah, I get that. Do you?

Dude? You are once again going into oblivion. I am NOT going to follow you because you offer NO proof this situation ever happended. Instead? I am going to offer this hypothetical:

duane hires anybody that knows how to use a MIG welder to work on NASA projects. The problem duane? I highly doubt NASA uses MIG welders and MIG welders don't know how to use TIG welders..............unless they have been trained by skilled people who know how to use them. Do you have enough sense to grasp the concept I am trying to show you?

And I thought your side was ALL about skillz setz! Don't tell us you are faking it!! Otherwise MIG welders are going to start asking for the same wages as TIG welders! THAT CAN'T HAPPEN!!

Should we allow chiropractors or podiatrists to get in on this too! Heck! Let's let the cashiers in on it too! Why shouldn't they be allowed to put their two cents in on our COVID response?

And just so we all know.....duane has been and still is telling us group think works, he is just using this post to tell us that group think doesn't work...........with experts in their fields. But gave us no physical proof of it working..or not working.....so his philosophy still stands..........as long as it isn't conducted by people who know how to fly planes? Or experts of any kind? When can these non experts start getting paid the same as the experts in your communal mind society? Inquiring minds want to know!!

I don't justify my opinions. I look to those smarter than me, then I ask questions............and you KNOW I do!! Then I make a decision. And I don't put my self first. Can you say the same?

Personally duane, between you, Bridge and me...........because this is the only time you and I are able to discuss anything is AFTER the thread is done.............and y'all think I didn't notice...............has duane? Don't question my questioning the status quo. YOU OWN the status quo.

Dude, Herd immunity is LITERALLY what the MI legislature is calling for. If they weren't? They would do something, instead of nothing.

NO dude!! YOU can NOT just explain away religious referendum acts across the country! Those ARE the people who are pushing ELITISM DOWN YOUR THROAT! The problem? They are projecting! And you are falling for it! And AGAIN, duane dodges the bullet of non democracy. I am not going to stand for this much longer, Mr. non representative Republic.

And the real reason you keep telling us that UVC, do you know the difference in UV light frequencies, is because you are a Trump sycophant. Sorry dude. Put that light where the sun doesn't shine and don't complain to me.......... a lot of other people did the same with bleach, lysol and hydroxychlorquine. Are you going to tell your wife or daughter to no longer go to the ob/gyn because they have a problem with having sex with demons instead? That is what Stella Maxwell told Trump supporters to do. Do you think she should be included with car wash attendants in our COVID response?

So what you are telling me, is that morals and attitudes have changed, and that I CAN grab 'em by the p@$$y and get away with it..........as long I am Donald Trump?

My how Christianity has changed since I last read the Word! Which wasn't that long ago!! And here I thought that the Bible, much like the constitution, wasn't a living document. I thought it was interpreted with "original intent". Stupid me. I believed your side!

Yeah! Your disrupter sounds just like Bernie.......doesn't it? Bernie doesn't want to get along at all. He wants to tell you to stop worshiping Mammon! And so did God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit! What do you have to say to that? Go ahead duane. I have been begging conservatives to search their souls. Do it. Prove me wrong. I AM DARING YOU TO. Don't you understand? NO ONE will take me up on the offer. Why? Because they aren't stupid. You don't deny the Holy Spirit! At least not in words. Especially on prominent news website.

Bernie understands he has to work in a system that is run by Corporate fascists. Why do refuse to accept that? And that IS why he can't make change! Don't you understand there are still more people in my party that vote with your side, than vice versa? Challenge me!

Now you want to play the centrist dem card?...............how predictable. Angus King is the only other independent Senator. Are these questions ever asked of him? And.........if Bernie is an Independent..........why do you push him on the FAR left?

The media gave candidate Trump OVER 4 BILLION DOLLARS IN FREE ADVERTISEMENTS in 2016.

Why do you think there is peace in the middle east? DJT just announced a troop withdrawal. Do you know what your side did when Obama announced a troop withdrawal? Shorter" How dare that treasonous Kenyan warn the enemy of what he is doing."

Release the unredacted Mueller report! And then grow some cajones and answer the question of why the Trump administration had so many Russian contacts, contacts with those who were working with pro Russian advocates (Erodogan and Assad) and why is Paul Manafort and half of his first staff in jail or about to be?

NO! duane, I am NOT going to play your Mackinaw Center for Public Destruction game. I have come to the conclusion that is the only place you could be gainfully employed. Your idea of Free trade is NOT what Bernies is.

{{{Are you saying the problem that the businesses were claiming free trade but weren’t truly practicing it, and that Bernie was going to come in to make free trade work?}}}

At some point duane, you are going to stop having to play stupid with me........or these conversations will be filed in the "not worthy of responding to" file.

Those businesses were lobbying congress for import relief. Can you understand that? Before that? They asked to have tax breaks to relieve them of the environmental and other regulations that America puts on it's businesses so that we can have clean air and water. Something that China is lacking and the reason they wear masks year round in the cities. To stop the smog from clogging their lungs.

I am sorry, was it Oblame-0 that used chemical warfare? OH! NO! It was the guy that is NOW in total control of Syria? And how did that happen? You better check yourself!

If you don't think I am challenging you..............ANSWER THE QUESTIONS that you refuse to answer! You are no different from any publican I know. You have ALL the answers, but no one seeks you out for them.

You can tell us that the mayors stopped the police from hampering the looters, the problem still persists. Why were the protestors gassed from the START, but the looters never were? I AM one of the biggest news junkies you will ever converse with duane. And if you can show me where ANY Mayor condoned looting I will acknowledge it. Are you still going to defend sticking a UVC light down your throat?

{{{I have not heard any ‘conservative’ say that. As best I can tell the Constitution doesn’t protect anything or anyone, it is the people of the country that bring the words of the Constitution to life and give it meaning. }}}

This IS dillhole logic! I am sorry. I don't want to rude..........but come on! This IS what cons think! There is no truth. There is no logic. It's fascism. Show me different. How can you have original intent, and morality or truth for that matter, when things are always up for interpretation?

I get it. Fag used to mean cigarettes. Now it is a derogatory comment about those who the elite wouldn't like to exist. GET IT DUANE?

{{{You do attack what I say, but you never identify a flaw or weakness and show how it falters, you never offer and alternative to what I say. }}}

Because you are questioning the same people that you are complaining you can't see. Who are those people? Health Experts! Psychologists for mental health, Dentists for oral health, Teachers! TEACHERS for FREEDUMBS SAKE. The very profession that your side has been demonizing for at LEAST a decade, AND the SCHOOLS that employ them, YOU are now saying SOCIETY CAN NOT DO WITHOUT THEM!

Is there NO cognitive dissonance in your brain right NOW? Because my brain hurts trying to bring your logic together!

I don't comment on your "idea" of bringing all brains together for multiple reasons. One? You still think Covid resides in your blood and not your lungs. Two? You haven't shown me any proof of why I should believe you. And third? I like the people who are at the stores I go to, but they, nor I, NOR YOU are qualified to respond to this virus. When you hire a farmer to build you a spaceship that launches you to the moon.

Then we can talk about bringing all minds.

Short of that? LET'S HAVE FULL ON DEMOCRACY! Dump the legislators! Let's do it Ancient Greece style! That is what are proposing, isn't it? I mean, that's what I always thought a collective meeting of the minds was. But, then again...............that would be MOB rule, wouldn't it?

You don't answer any questions dude. You pose questions in return.......and I could respect that, if you answered the question first.......like I do.

duane
Fri, 11/20/2020 - 11:15am

Herd,
You seem to be wandering off the topic at hand. Why go to NASA look for organizations using welders, at one employer I had here in Michigan employing a full rage of welding skills and welding technology expertise. Whether it is Covid or an around the clock welding job on a distillation column, things go better when there is a diversity in the group addressing the problem, so I don't get your point.
I offer and example of questioning, you seem to have a preoccupation with uv emitting light and where it needs to be placed. Is that because you want illumination to facilitate your reading during to fill all the time you seem to be spending in that location?

I do offer answers to questions, but I try to encourage those asking the questions to know what the are trying to learn, so they will be listening, and so they will be asking the right questions. Do you want to test that?

Herd mentality
Sun, 11/22/2020 - 7:50pm

I posted before I saw your last comment.

I do offer answers to questions, but I try to encourage those asking the questions to know what the are trying to learn, so they will be listening, and so they will be asking the right questions. Do you want to test that?
______________________________________________________

You aren't going to shove that UVC light down your throat...........are ya?

I already saved yourself from yourself once...............how many times do you want me save you from your ideology?

Careful. I might think you are one of the coastal elite that wants their homes replaced after every hurricane, year, after year after year after year.........etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,

duane
Mon, 11/23/2020 - 7:22pm

I always wondered where got Bridge their millions of reader, you maybe right, its from the 'coast'.

Anonymous
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 8:31pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio
In the United States, the 1952 polio epidemic became the worst outbreak in the nation's history. Of the nearly 58,000 cases reported that year, 3,145 died and 21,269 were left with mild to disabling paralysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine
The first successful demonstration of a polio vaccine was by Hilary Koprowski in 1950, with a live attenuated virus which people drank.[8] The vaccine was not approved for use in the United States, but was used successfully elsewhere.[8] An inactivated polio vaccine, developed a few years later by Jonas Salk, came into use in 1955.[2][9] A different, oral polio vaccine was developed by Albert Sabin and came into commercial use in 1961

The problem with a vaccine is it takes time. And when you rush things, haste makes waste. Except we are dealing with peoples lives. And I don't think anyone cares what party the person that comes up with it is. The reason people don't like big Pharma is because like now, they are getting govn't tax payer funds and then they charge Americans out the rear and it's not what they charge in other countries.

Masks work. If they didn't, there would be no reason to make them for anything at all. They are better than nothing. And do you think you have to have a college class to use a face mask? Face Masks 101: How to fit your face mask on your face.

It seems like a lot of us do! Hint: it goes over your mouth AND nose.

And then they tell us they don't need experts...

George Hagenauer
Sat, 11/07/2020 - 8:44pm

It is interesting - every two weeks I sit through an informal on line international presentation on the latest research on Covid19. And then I go on line and instead of posting or talking about what new stuff is learned- I see arguments over wearing masks - going over the same misinformation given out by political folks months ago. One basic principal people need to be aware of and that is this is a new virus and people are still learning about it. As such what we know will change and yes mistakes will be made. It is spread through the air and on surfaces. A lot of folks are asymptomatic and are spreading the virus as much as the really sick people. Masks that meet the basic requirements of multiple layers of cloth help keep the virus from spreading and washing your hands well and regularly helps. Those are the basics and we are yet implementing them consistently because we like to argue about it until it hits us. Once we get the basics down we can start talking about the newer findings on long terms effects, how if works with children etc. . We need to listen to the doctors and researchers who specialize in viruses and keep up on the changes. The researchers who study viruses are not in the legislature or other bodies. In countries where it has worked they are in the forefront not the elected officials.

Clifford
Sun, 11/08/2020 - 10:47am

First of all, I have had the COVID twice. The First time was long before we knew anything about the COVID, in January. The second time was just this last month. My wife also contracted it. Fact is we wore masks when we were near any groups and at work. This virus is spread by contact of surfaces. Lastly Trumps comments were out of frustration with the CDC that flip flopped numerous times. Fanci said we should not where masks early on, mainly because he didnt want the front line workers to face shortages of masks. I was disgusted the way the FDA and the CDC handled this so called Pandemic. I will also note that the Democrats and the media said little about unmasked BLM and ANIFA protesters, not to mention the fact they were often crammed together.

Anne Rock
Sun, 11/08/2020 - 12:46pm

Where can we get the statistics for positives in percentage of those tested, so we have a better way to relate to last Spring?

Lorraine Howlett
Sun, 11/08/2020 - 11:13pm

If you do research you will find most of the answers you need to stay safe. Stay home as much as possible, limit who comes into your house, maintain social distancing when you are out, and by all means wear a proper mask and wear it properly. No, plastic face shields are not protection without a mask. Gaithers are not much protection unless you double their thickness. You achieve 70% protection by wearing facemasks and that would go up if everyone wore one that is effective. If you can blow out a candle with the mask on, it's not effective. That's pretty simple.

He has a "plan"....
Mon, 11/09/2020 - 9:20am

Don't worry everyone: According to the TV commercials (which have to be true) when Biden becomes President, he's going to crap out a vaccine and magically distribute it to over 350 million people. Because he has a "plan".

Covid was the best thing that could have happened for the democrats. They couldn't wait until the bodies started dropping. No big deal that our Governor and HER orders were directly responsible for the deaths of over 2,000 seniors in nursing homes. Those deaths were justifiable casualties in her desperate quest for some national media attention.

Trump death panels
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 3:29am

Trump is the president who refuses to wear a mask. He holds superspreader events. Now 245,943 are dead.

Anyone would be better as president than incompetent and reckless trump!

Bood
Tue, 11/10/2020 - 9:44am

I see a lot of people wearing masks and very few who don't. So why are cases on the rise if masks are the answer???
But it's OK now. Joe will make it all go away. Actually...if Joe can make it go away, why hasn't he and his party already jumped in with his plan for the sake of the American people? I think we all know the answer to that one.
Do not fear. I'm predicting that cases will magically begin to drop after the inauguration.

Anonymous
Tue, 11/10/2020 - 12:47pm

Do not fear. I'm predicting that cases will magically begin to drop after the inauguration.

I thought it was going to be gone after Nov 3?

Keep moving those goal posts! No one will notice!

Holy Bible
Wed, 11/11/2020 - 3:32am

Most people at the Trump rallies all over the country were not wearing masks. Now the hospitals and morgues are filling and going over capacity. You reap what you sow. In your case it's chaf.